Re: Beaulieu 5008S / double system sound

From: Cari Machet (email suppressed)
Date: Tue Jun 20 2006 - 08:45:26 PDT

well there is a difference between professional
and anal wasting ur time just on accounta ya wanna b anal
cause ur life is real big if ur makin a big deal outa everything
synching up audio to picture is not that massively time consuming
in the end u would probably expend less time and energy synching
than figuring out and gathering up all the absolute must haves to be
(and it may not end up perfect anyway)
plus if ur film is just alot of people yakking straight at the camera
w/ s8 they are only going to b doing that for 3 min. so drift is not that
head and tale slates won't really work for sure - best is ur eye
but they are a great starting reference
besides ur probably not just gonna use all u shoot
the 'professionals' (often) just synch the 'needed' parts
get the other crap close
but also there are lotsa free interns on the planet
that would love to synch crap up


On 6/20/06, Freya <email suppressed> wrote:
> With referance generally to this thread. One important
> thing was omitted from the description of this process
> and that is you absolutely MUST use a crystal locked
> sound recording device, such as mini disc/DAT etc.
> That is the absolute key to this trick. The sentance
> about recording audio wild makes it sound like you can
> record the audio with a wild recording device. I'm
> sure this is not what they meanyt because the whole
> point of this is that the audio is crystal locked.
> The idea is that S8 cameras with their little
> electronic motors are often fairly stable in speed,
> they only have to move a tiny amount of film compared
> to 16mm and 35mm and they just whir away happily. They
> can stay fairly consistantly at speed for quite some
> time relatively. Some people have even reported being
> in sync for the length of a whole cart. Maybe they got
> lucky but there we are.
> However, while they are consistant in speed, what
> speed they are consistant at could be just about
> anything. It can vary from camera to camera even of
> the same make. Thought you were filming at 24fps did
> you? Well you know it's probably something like that.
> Something around there vaguely, that kind of thing.
> You probably won't be able to tell the difference,
> that is till you try and sync up your audio!
> If for example you are filming at a perfect 23.4 fps
> throughout your film, and you transfer your film in
> telecine at 25fps. When you come to sync the audio
> from your crystal locked recorder, it will not even be
> vaguely in sync. This is why you time stretch the
> audio, so that it matches whatever kind of random
> speed your camera is filming at.
> What are the downsides? Well your camera might drift
> in speed, sending you off sync. This wouldn't happen
> with a crystal unit but is possible in this case.
> Apparently it doesn't happen that much but it can vary
> from camera to camera. You will have to run some tests
> with your own camera and see. This is why your audio
> must be crystal locked. It's bad enough that your
> camera could drift, and maybe it would drift so little
> you wouldn't notice, but if the audio is drifting too,
> then you will have drift all over the place and it
> will all be horrid.
> Also the speed you are running your camera at might
> not be HMI safe etc. Tho obviously if you are shooting
> on little S8 you probably don't have a bank of HMI
> lights anyway, but who knows!
> Lastly it's just down to luck really. You try it with
> your camera. Perhaps film yourself and clap your hands
> at the beginning and end, and you see how long you can
> maintain sync. If you get lucky you have a camera that
> runs at a consistant speed and everything is great.
> Now to what Jeff had to say:
> --- Jeff Kreines <email suppressed> wrote:
> > On Jun 20, 2006, at 2:09 AM, email suppressed wrote:
> >
> > > I doon't have that kind of free time. It sounds
> > like you are saying
> > > that a crystal control unit is not necessary if
> > using a Beaulieu or
> > > a Nizo or the high end Canon cameras, yes?
> >
> > I didn't see who said that, but it's nonsense.
> It was David who was talking about it but I don't
> think he quite said what dh hunter said here. It's
> paraphrasing.
> I guess the key word here is neccessary, and what is
> neccesary may vary a little depending on what you are
> up to and the results you are trying to acheive.
> A better word might be proffesional. It's definitely
> not a proffesional way of working, but it can be made
> to work. It's very popular in the S8 world these days.
> > You need a crystal -- Super8 Sound (the old company,
> > in Cambridge,
> > MA) made one.
> The company changed its name to pro8mm some years ago.
> I havn't seen the upgrade for sale for years either
> but they still sell crystal upgraded cameras so you
> could try having a word with them but I don't imagine
> they will be cheaper than the film group. The film
> group have crystal mods for a wide range of S8
> cameras.
> > As someone who suffered through S8 Sync at MIT in
> > the early 70s, I
> > wouldn't wish it on anyone. S8 is great, but the
> > cameras are noisy,
> > non-crystal, etc. It's a kludge.
> Well the cameras aren't as noisy as 16mm mos cameras,
> they could be blimped but I have never seen it done.
> The beaulieu is quite noisy in paticular. The one set
> of S8 cameras known to be suprisingly quiet are the
> nizo's, however, they are also annecdotaly said to
> perhaps be one of the least reliable S8 cameras
> because they have sophisticated electronics and a lot
> of S8 cameras are getting very old these days. There
> is a very high incidence of dead nizo's and it's
> incredibly hard to get servicing unlike for the
> beaulieu.
> Kludge may be true, (those little cartridges for
> starters probably, although I kind of love them) but
> quite frankly as an experimental filmaker I am very
> used to kludge and kludging it and doing various wierd
> things to make it work. One of those things.
> As I say it depends on what you are trying to achieve
> tho. I mean do you even really need to have lip sync
> anyway? I watched a great documentary type thing
> (Revolution V or something?) where there was no lip
> sync whatsoever, but when people talked they just
> didn't show their mouths. Pointedly so in fact. Lip
> sync is just a bit of a gimmick really that people
> like to use it so they can pretend it is real more
> easily.
> As experimental filmakers we might feel we don't need
> to do that as we have our own traditions and quite
> frankly we can make up our own rules as we go along,
> so there! :)
> The only trouble with this is that if they are using
> every piece of artifice to make their lies seem more
> real, then maybe you need to use as much artifice as
> you can lay your hands on so that your truth can
> compete against their lies, which people will think is
> more real because they saw the peoples lips move in
> time with the words.
> Okay I just read that and it's one of the most
> convoluted and confusing paragraphs I have written but
> look, you know exactly what I mean don't you? and
> right now I need to rush off and sort a load of things
> out :)
> Although somehow the fact it is complicated and not as
> easy to read as say "the daily mail", or "the
> telegraph", seems entirely appropriate.
> Anyways...
> love
> Freya
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For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.