Re: UbuWeb: Bad for Business!

From: DOMINIC ANGERAME (email suppressed)
Date: Mon Jun 16 2008 - 08:39:50 PDT

Thanks for responding try and respond
about the shifting audience and fans for experimental
cinema.....there are many micro cinemas appearing
across the United States and now in Europe. These are
small groups of experimental film lovers who banned
together once a month, once a week or once in a while.
They pool their funds together and project 16mm S8mm
and R8mm films from the collection of work at Canyon
Cinema....there people are mostly young 22-32......I
do not ask them their age, sex, etc........I only make
sure that they know how to project the films, have
proper equipment and will be responsible for the
careful handling of the films being projected.....

The rising in micro cinemas, and movie galleries has
increased quite a bit over the past decade and has
filled in a large gap created by "film" schools" who
no longer show films. I had a class of 25 beginning
film students arrive for a visit from a well known SF
University. When they came in the office two 16mm film
inspectors were rewinding films, and I took them to
the back storage space where we keep our inventory of
more than 3000 motion picture films.

One student asked me "what are these" pointing to the
film cans, and "what are those people doing" pointing
to the film inspectors rewinding
movies...Interestingly enough the film "professor" who
brought the students in...had already snuck out of the

In March I presented an experimental film showing on
16mm and 35mm to a sold out audience at the Nashville
Film Festival in Tennessee.....the show was a hugh
success showing films of Ken Jacobs, Shirley Clarke,
Ken Anger, Stan Brakhage, Michelle Silva, Donna
Cameron and a very minor sampling of some of the work
in the Canyon Cinema collection.

After the showing there were a lot of questions,
people hung out to talk about the work...most were
about 25.....they were happy to finally see a Ken
Jacobs film IN FILM and a Stan Brakhage film IN
FILM....this grroup will soon be renting films for
the small theatre they run independently of the Film

So I cannot agree that fans and audiences are
decreasing.....I am not experiencing this when I go
out at exhibitions. In Nashville before my screening
there was a showing or short documentary
films......and not more than 10 people were at the

There is still a large interest in experimental cinema
both new and old around the world....the program I
took to Cuba last year had three standing room only

Dominic Angerame
Filmmaker, Director, Canyon Cinema
--- Jorge Amaro <email suppressed> wrote:

> Thank you David, that was a remarkable post.
> Dominic, I am sorry, I wont argue with you about
> that, you clearly
> know that more than I do, I am just a young man and
> as a young man I
> dont see my friends taking any interest whatsoever
> in those films,
> even with screenings and dvd's released.
> Experimental Cinema needs
> fans, needs people that see films out of sheer love,
> not only critics
> and acadamics, and teachers that 'force' students to
> watch them. And
> from what I see the interest is declining. People
> just dont care,
> either if they are in ubu or whatever. Most people
> of my age, I am 25,
> dont even know what a 16mm print is! I'm sorry if I
> sounded harsh in
> any way, but I will stick to my believe that low res
> clips had nothing
> to do with the decrease of rentals. And as reagrds
> for the dvd's on
> canyon as much as I like to support artists, i have
> bills to pay, and
> if I dont get the money by the end of the month, no
> artist is going to
> help me. It is my deepest believe that any artist
> should be paid for
> their work, but I also believe they should be
> reasonable with the
> prices they charge. And i can not travel at all to
> see a film like
> most of you people can, its unthinkable. Without the
> internent I would
> have never ever knowed what films lay out there, I
> would never be
> interested in supporting artists like I have done in
> the past, or try
> to find like minded friends to set up screenings
> (this as proven to be
> an endless crusade). While I have some resevrations
> about UBU posting
> crappy quality films online, i think that online
> snippets or even full
> films is the way to go and I stand by what I say,
> that no one will
> think they have seen the fiilm after seeing an
> youtube version, if
> that is true, why do people still flock to cinemas
> to see Indiana
> Jones and such films? They are all over the internet
> in several
> versions.
> 2008/6/16 Brook Hinton <email suppressed>:
> > Two things:
> > David: "The only times 21st century people step
> out of their individual
> > media cocoons is for 'special' events"
> > My experience with students is quite the opposite.
> But that may reflect that
> > my last two primary teaching gigs have been art
> schools. I do note some live
> > component adds greatly to the excitement
> (filmmaker in person, live
> > film/video/audio generation of some sort).
> > Dominic: "we pay the
> > artist 50% not 10% that amazon pays"
> > Just for the record, depending on means of
> distribution via Amazon
> > (createspace - where it can range from 0% to 90%
> depending on the list price
> > -or direct sale to amazon, etc), the percentage is
> much closer to 50 than to
> > 10. I haven't calculated mine in a while but I
> believe it works out to close
> > to 40%.
> > As someone who has chaired a film department, I
> believe that while it is
> > possible online video sources have reduced coop
> rentals, the more likely
> > culprit online is torrent sites, and the likely
> culprit is not online but
> > the astonishing, shocking, wholesale slashing of
> rental budgets. A semester
> > of avant-garde film history on a budget of two or
> maybe three hundred
> > dollars anyone? And it's not just a film problem -
> how many rentals from VDB
> > can you get for that same amount for a video art
> course?
> > The problem for me remains: making the best art
> one can and advancing the
> > form requires that artists have the option to do
> it full time (yes, some can
> > do it part time and produce great work, but these
> are exceptions), yet
> > obscurity wlll kill the forms outright, and we
> need a culture where every
> > single high school student in the country can see
> Sadie Benning's video
> > diaries, Serene Velocity, Window Water Baby
> Moving, and the list goes on...
> > multiple times, in class AND on their own. How do
> we meet the needs of the
> > culture and the artist? Can we make the age of
> infinite digital reproduction
> > work to support this or are we going to drown
> ourselves sticking to existing
> > models and fears?
> > Brook
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 3:45 PM, DOMINIC ANGERAME
> > <email suppressed> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Jorge...actually 16mm rentals have not been
> >> disappearing....I think that is what most people
> want
> >> to think.....just not the case.......
> >>
> >> Canyon's prices for sale dvds are high...we pay
> the
> >> artist 50% not 10% that amazon pays....
> >>
> >> I do not know where you get that figure of
> rentals
> >> decreasing...however I would recommend you buy
> Scott
> >> MacDonald's new books called "Canyon
> Cinema......"
> >> where the figures are listed from 1966 thru the
> >> present....regading the rental figures.
> >>
> >> Canyon Cinema sells this book for $29.99 plus
> >> shipping, tax.
> >>
> >> email suppressed
> >>
> >>
> >> Rentals have fallen ONLY SINCE DVD COPIES, UBU,
> >> AROUND.....
> >>
> >> I am sorry to be so angry...however, if you
> really
> >> want my professional advice and experience you
> have to
> >> pay for you would any other
> professional
> >> whether it be teacher, researcher, scholar,
> curator,
> >> or shrink....I will quote you unaffordable rates
> off
> >> the list.
> >>
> >> I would like to know how much Re-voir and others
> gross
> >> a year in sales and how much goes back to the
> >> artists....
> >>
> >> Dominic
> >>
> >> --- Jorge Amaro <email suppressed> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Well, the dvd's and vhs i see for sale on
> canyon are
> >> > very overpriced
> >> > compared to the dvd's amazon sells. I never
> came
> >> > accross a single
> >> > person that was happy with seeing the version
> of
> >> > Fuses on UBU. It has
> >> > a low resolution was badly transcoded and
> probably
> >> > from some bootleg
> >> > that is totally messed up. If there was a
> retail
> >> > version i would
> >> > gladly buy it, and i'm very sure other people
> would
> >> > aswell. I dont
> >> > know the numbers of microcinema or re-voir but
> i'm
> >> > pretty sure they
> >> > sell, otherwise they would be out of business
> and if
> >> > you search hard
> >> > enough you'll find most of the stuff they
> released
> >> > on the internet for
> >> > viewing and downloading.
> >> >
> >> > Hasn't the rentals in the last 20 years being
> >> > decreasing any way?
> >> > There was the big boom of experimental cinema
> in
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