From: Jorge Amaro (email suppressed)
Date: Mon Jun 16 2008 - 00:33:40 PDT
Thank you David, that was a remarkable post.
Dominic, I am sorry, I wont argue with you about that, you clearly
know that more than I do, I am just a young man and as a young man I
dont see my friends taking any interest whatsoever in those films,
even with screenings and dvd's released. Experimental Cinema needs
fans, needs people that see films out of sheer love, not only critics
and acadamics, and teachers that 'force' students to watch them. And
from what I see the interest is declining. People just dont care,
either if they are in ubu or whatever. Most people of my age, I am 25,
dont even know what a 16mm print is! I'm sorry if I sounded harsh in
any way, but I will stick to my believe that low res clips had nothing
to do with the decrease of rentals. And as reagrds for the dvd's on
canyon as much as I like to support artists, i have bills to pay, and
if I dont get the money by the end of the month, no artist is going to
help me. It is my deepest believe that any artist should be paid for
their work, but I also believe they should be reasonable with the
prices they charge. And i can not travel at all to see a film like
most of you people can, its unthinkable. Without the internent I would
have never ever knowed what films lay out there, I would never be
interested in supporting artists like I have done in the past, or try
to find like minded friends to set up screenings (this as proven to be
an endless crusade). While I have some resevrations about UBU posting
crappy quality films online, i think that online snippets or even full
films is the way to go and I stand by what I say, that no one will
think they have seen the fiilm after seeing an youtube version, if
that is true, why do people still flock to cinemas to see Indiana
Jones and such films? They are all over the internet in several
versions.
2008/6/16 Brook Hinton <email suppressed>:
> Two things:
> David: "The only times 21st century people step out of their individual
> media cocoons is for 'special' events"
> My experience with students is quite the opposite. But that may reflect that
> my last two primary teaching gigs have been art schools. I do note some live
> component adds greatly to the excitement (filmmaker in person, live
> film/video/audio generation of some sort).
> Dominic: "we pay the
> artist 50% not 10% that amazon pays"
> Just for the record, depending on means of distribution via Amazon
> (createspace - where it can range from 0% to 90% depending on the list price
> -or direct sale to amazon, etc), the percentage is much closer to 50 than to
> 10. I haven't calculated mine in a while but I believe it works out to close
> to 40%.
> As someone who has chaired a film department, I believe that while it is
> possible online video sources have reduced coop rentals, the more likely
> culprit online is torrent sites, and the likely culprit is not online but
> the astonishing, shocking, wholesale slashing of rental budgets. A semester
> of avant-garde film history on a budget of two or maybe three hundred
> dollars anyone? And it's not just a film problem - how many rentals from VDB
> can you get for that same amount for a video art course?
> The problem for me remains: making the best art one can and advancing the
> form requires that artists have the option to do it full time (yes, some can
> do it part time and produce great work, but these are exceptions), yet
> obscurity wlll kill the forms outright, and we need a culture where every
> single high school student in the country can see Sadie Benning's video
> diaries, Serene Velocity, Window Water Baby Moving, and the list goes on...
> multiple times, in class AND on their own. How do we meet the needs of the
> culture and the artist? Can we make the age of infinite digital reproduction
> work to support this or are we going to drown ourselves sticking to existing
> models and fears?
> Brook
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 3:45 PM, DOMINIC ANGERAME
> <email suppressed> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jorge...actually 16mm rentals have not been
>> disappearing....I think that is what most people want
>> to think.....just not the case.......
>>
>> Canyon's prices for sale dvds are high...we pay the
>> artist 50% not 10% that amazon pays....
>>
>> I do not know where you get that figure of rentals
>> decreasing...however I would recommend you buy Scott
>> MacDonald's new books called "Canyon Cinema......"
>> where the figures are listed from 1966 thru the
>> present....regading the rental figures.
>>
>> Canyon Cinema sells this book for $29.99 plus
>> shipping, tax.
>>
>> email suppressed
>>
>>
>> Rentals have fallen ONLY SINCE DVD COPIES, UBU,
>> YOUTUBE, AND OTHER RIP OFF COMPANIES HAVE COME
>> AROUND.....
>>
>> I am sorry to be so angry...however, if you really
>> want my professional advice and experience you have to
>> pay for it......like you would any other professional
>> whether it be teacher, researcher, scholar, curator,
>> or shrink....I will quote you unaffordable rates off
>> the list.
>>
>> I would like to know how much Re-voir and others gross
>> a year in sales and how much goes back to the
>> artists....
>>
>> Dominic
>>
>> --- Jorge Amaro <email suppressed> wrote:
>>
>> > Well, the dvd's and vhs i see for sale on canyon are
>> > very overpriced
>> > compared to the dvd's amazon sells. I never came
>> > accross a single
>> > person that was happy with seeing the version of
>> > Fuses on UBU. It has
>> > a low resolution was badly transcoded and probably
>> > from some bootleg
>> > that is totally messed up. If there was a retail
>> > version i would
>> > gladly buy it, and i'm very sure other people would
>> > aswell. I dont
>> > know the numbers of microcinema or re-voir but i'm
>> > pretty sure they
>> > sell, otherwise they would be out of business and if
>> > you search hard
>> > enough you'll find most of the stuff they released
>> > on the internet for
>> > viewing and downloading.
>> >
>> > Hasn't the rentals in the last 20 years being
>> > decreasing any way?
>> > There was the big boom of experimental cinema in the
>> > 70's and I
>> > believe after that it just started to decrease, a
>> > lot and has been
>> > going downhill ever since. I might be wrong though.
>> >
>> > How to reach young people with experimental cinema?
>> > I dont attend much
>> > screenings due to me geographical location, but thew
>> > few i do attend
>> > is mostly older people (more than 50), what will
>> > happen when that
>> > generation dies? Will exp. fall on to oblivion, like
>> > so many films
>> > already are? I do not hold the answers to anything,
>> > but i honestly
>> > dont believe that UBU or the internet has naything
>> > to do with the
>> > decrease of rentals.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2008/6/15 DOMINIC ANGERAME
>> > <email suppressed>:
>> > > Hi Jorge...please regard my other post.....YES
>> > YES
>> > > YES......posting of films on UBU, youtube, and the
>> > > rest HAS HAS, yes HAS decreased rentals and
>> > demands
>> > > for people to see these works in other ways....
>> > > .......it has impacted the entire field......in a
>> > > negative way.....and if it continues the field
>> > will
>> > > not be able to be plowed......I cannot be more
>> > > clear.....thanks
>> > >
>> > > Dominic
>> > > --- Jorge Amaro <email suppressed> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Dominic,
>> > >>
>> > >> If you dont mind me asking, do you think that UBU
>> > or
>> > >> other such places
>> > >> affected the booking of prints on canyon cinema?
>> > How
>> > >> as the booking
>> > >> being since the beggining of this decade? As it
>> > >> declined in any way?
>> > >>
>> > >> 2008/6/15 DOMINIC ANGERAME
>> > >> <email suppressed>:
>> > >> > As a ps......I believe it was me that wrote to
>> > UBU
>> > >> > some time ago asking that they remove Bruce
>> > >> Conner,
>> > >> > Peter Kubelka, and other filmmakers whom I knew
>> > >> only
>> > >> > had thier work with Canyon Cinema and had no
>> > >> desire,
>> > >> > intention, or inclination to digitize their
>> > work
>> > >> and
>> > >> > present it to the public that way....for either
>> > >> > preview or exhibition purposes......they do not
>> > >> need
>> > >> > to pad their resumes and add another lecture
>> > tour
>> > >> at
>> > >> > least no thru UBU
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Dominic Angerame
>> > >> > Canyon Cinema
>> > >> > --- Zev Robinson <email suppressed> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > ---------------------------------
>> > >> > I'd like to question thebasic assumption
>> > that
>> > >> Joel
>> > >> > started off with, not saying that he'sentirely
>> > >> wrong,
>> > >> > but just that it is not that it is not as
>> > simple
>> > >> as
>> > >> > hestated, nor is it necessarily one side or the
>> > >> other.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Is it really bad forbusiness?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Are there any stats on claims of a loss of
>> > >> revenue?
>> > >> > Are thoseartists who become better know because
>> > of
>> > >> > internet (ubuweb, utube, p2p)more or less
>> > likely
>> > >> to
>> > >> > increase sales of dvds or cds?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Are their overallearnings more or less likely
>> > to
>> > >> > increase via lectures, commissions,teaching
>> > >> > opportunities, screening fees, purchases by
>> > >> > institutions, andotheropportunities?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On the whole, does ubu increase the
>> > popularityand
>> > >> > renown of the artists on the site, and thus
>> > >> increase
>> > >> > sales? ordoesn't it? And how many people _do_
>> > buy
>> > >> a
>> > >> > dvd because they first sawit on ubu and decide
>> > >> that
>> > >> > they want a better quality copy? Just
>> > >> becausesomeone
>> > >> > does see something on Ubu or utube, it doesn't
>> > >> > necessarily meanthat they would purchase a dvd
>> > if
>> > >> it
>> > >> > were not available. Nor doesseeing something on
>> > >> Ubu
>> > >> > mean that someone won't buy a dvd to view on
>> > >> alarger
>> > >> > screen and with better quality.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I noticed that there are some links to re:voir
>> > to
>> > >> > purchase the dvd ifone wishes to.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I recently read that obscurity is a much
>> > >> greaterdanger
>> > >> > to artists than file sharing. There are many
>> > >> articles
>> > >> > anddebates out there on the complexity the
>> > >> > relationship between filesharing and sales and
>> > the
>> > >> > overall earnings of bands and how often itmeans
>> > an
>> > >> > increase in revenues. My feeling is that Ubu
>> > >> provides
>> > >> > aservice where people can see a copy or
>> > >> reproduction,
>> > >> > quality issuesaside, of things that they may
>> > >> otherwise
>> > >> > not see or know about, andthat broadly,
>> > enhances
>> > >> and
>> > >> > disseminates an alternative culture, andthat
>> > can
>> > >> only
>> > >> > be good for artists.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Zev
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Zev Robinson
>> > >> > www.artafterscience.com
>> > >> > www.zrdesign.co.uk
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Joel S Bachar wrote:
>> > >> > Dear Frameworkers and Directors of the Board of
>> > >> > UbuWeb:We would like to address some serious
>> > >> concerns
>> > >> > of ours and theartists/labels/distributors we
>> > >> > represent in regards to the practices ofUbuWeb,
>> > >> and
>> > >> > some of the opinions posted about it on this
>> > >> > Listserv.The recent threads have shifted to the
>> > >> > quality of online viewing which wewould not
>> > like
>> > >> to
>> > >> > address here as this is another issue.We feel
>> > that
>> >
>> === message truncated ===
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________________________
>> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
>
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________________
> Brook Hinton
> film/video/audio art
> www.brookhinton.com
> studio vlog/blog: www.brookhinton.com/temporalab
>
> __________________________________________________________________ For info
> on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
__________________________________________________________________
For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.