Re: [Frameworks] sprocket dilemma

From: Myron Ort (email suppressed)
Date: Wed Jun 23 2010 - 11:06:12 PDT


Thanks for clearing up the mystery. I also did see those camera pics
on eBay and wondered.

It is good that your camera has the single pull down claw.

In order to use this camera to shoot film you have these options:

1. Find double perforated film stock and use that. It has been
phased out, but you can find it here and there. In this case the
camera is ready to go.

2. Find Regular "double 8mm" film stock. You might have to re-spool
the 25' reels onto your 100' daylight spools in a dark room. You
will need to understand the implications of having these extra
sprocket holes.
(double 8mm film stock is actually the same as 16mm film stock but
with an extra set of sprocket holes in between the 16mm frames, it
was meant to be split into 8mm after shooting in a regular 8mm camera
and slit after processing.

3. Modify the sprocket wheels in the camera in order to use the more
readily available 16mm single perforated film stocks.

If you cannot remove the sprocket wheels, you could perhaps grind off
one side of the sprockets with a dremel tool while the wheels are
still in the camera. You will need to understand which sprocket teeth
need to be removed. It will be the set closest to you when you open
the camera, not the ones nearest the inside body of the camera. It
will be the ones on the left if you are the film looking out through
the lens. (If you had some single perf in hand you could see how it
would go in the camera.) You would grind these teeth off and leave
the wheel smooth where those teeth were. I have done this with the
wheels still in the camera. It would need to be done carefully.

If you try to thread single perf film in the camera without removing
these teeth they will dig into the film and jam the camera, it won't

There are technicians who could likely do this and also perform any
other maintenance and lubrication that might be needed, but this can
be expensive and make you question why you are putting that kind of
money into a older non-reflex camera.
I usually use Jacko for this type of work with my Bolex

I think you should find some double perf film stock and try out the
camera first.
Contact me privately, I may have something.


On Jun 23, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jennifer Saparzadeh wrote:

> Hello mo,
> This is definitely not too much information and is very helpful.
> I actually
> found the photographs on ebay-- someone is selling this same exact
> camera for
> 500 hundred dollars! I am not trying to sell this though, I just
> want to use
> it.
> (I wonder why they are selling it for so much..)
> The big questions at this point:
> 1. is it a double pull down claw?
> - You came to the conclusion that it is not a double pull down
> claw, which
> after looking through and running film through the camera I think
> is true.
> 2. can you see how the sprocket wheels can be removed, and then re-
> installed.
> -I don't think that the camera allows one to remove the set of
> sprockets so it
> would have to be done by force.
> Have you ever used a double sprocket camera without removing the extra
> sprockets? If so, was the image effected very much by the
> irritation of the
> extra sprockets?
> I am located in New York at the moment but I am from Los Angeles
> and go to
> school in Amherst, MA. Well I've got to say-- thank you very much
> for all of
> your help so far, I really appreciate it.
> Jennie
> Quoting Myron Ort <email suppressed>:
>> Hi Jennifer,
>> What an interesting vintage camera. Thanks for the nice pictures
>> of it.
>> Did it come with just the one lens?
>> I do notice that it will require double sprocket 16mm film.
>> This format film stock has become less common these days since most
>> cameras are single sprocket.
>> It is possible to modify the sprockets in your camera so it can take
>> the more available single perf stock,
>> as long as the claw in your camera is a single pull down claw. If the
>> the camera has a double pull down claw I am not sure how easy it will
>> be to modify.
>> I have filed down sprockets on older Bell & Howell double sprocket
>> cameras to modify for use with single sprocket film. I was able to
>> do this with cameras from circa 1940s.
>> Some even older Bell & Howell cameras (ca '30s and '20s) not only
>> have double sprockets but also a double pull down claw in which case
>> it is beyond my abilities or willingness to modify.
>> Look behind the pressure plate as you run the camera to see if there
>> is a single claw or a double claw pull down. If it is single, you
>> might consider the possibility of modifying one of the sprocket rows
>> on the two sprocket wheels.
>> Another approach would be to track down sources of double sprocket
>> 16mm film stock. Last time I checked, it was not so easy to find
>> anymore.
>> One source is "double 8mm" which is made available. Double 8mm is
>> 16mm double sprocket film with an extra set of sprocket holes in
>> between each frame, so to speak.
>> You and your camera would simply learn to ignore the extra sprocket
>> holes. This could become tricky if you were to rethread the film to
>> send through the camera again for multiple exposure,
>> a process which would be better done by winding back while film is
>> still in the camera.
>> In the old B&H cameras the sprocket wheels are easily removed so
>> grinding off the row of "extra" sprockets was a simple matter.
>> Check to see how the sprocket wheels might be removable. Then it will
>> be a matter of knowing which is the correct row of sprockets to grind
>> off, something obvious if you have some single perf stock in hand.
>> If you are not mechanically inclined you could get a technician to
>> help.
>> Hope this does not seem like too much info.
>> It looks like a nice camera with a great lens.
>> Where are you located?
>> Myron Ort
>> Northern California, USA
>> On Jun 22, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Jennifer Saparzadeh wrote:
>>> Hello Steven,
>>> It is an old (from late 1920's or 30's) Movikon Zeiss Ikon. I
>>> have attached
>>> a photograph if it gives more information about how it should be
>>> cleaned
>>> specifically. I don't know what it means for something to be quick
>>> release, so
>>> I don't know if this is or not.
>>> Jennie
>>> Quoting Steven Gladstone <email suppressed>:
>>>> Jennifer Saparzadeh wrote:
>>>>> Hello frameworks,
>>>>> To clean the inside of a 16 mm camera (the part where the
>>>>> film goes)
>>>> what
>>>>> should be used? Alcohol? water? I have no idea- any suggestions
>>>>> would help.
>>>> DO NOT USE compressed air IN THE GATE AREA.
>>>> From either side, ever, ever, never.
>>>> What kind of camera (Arri 16s, m, Scoopic? ) or a quick release
>>>> such
>>>> as Aaton, Arri SR, Eclair?
>>>> --
>>>> Steven Gladstone
>>>> New York Based Cinematographer
>>>> Gladstone films
>>>> 917-886-5858
>>> <Zeiss_Movikon_16.jpg>______________________________________________
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