From: JEFFREY PAULL (email suppressed)
Date: Sat Jun 06 2009 - 06:25:06 PDT
Hi, Myron,
The water soluble dye is absorbed by the gelatin coating that's painted on the plastic film base.
So the film base doesn't matter: mylar, Estar, acetate, etc.
The transparent gelatin (variation of Jello) is mixed with the light sensitive chemicals that, on development, will become the image.
The gelatin holds it in place, just as the paper in a magazine holds the image in place.
That's why its possible to remove the developed image and leave the gelatin in place,
just as (theoretically) you could remove the magazine image and leave the paper.)
In any case, the gelatin-emulsion coating is the same on an Estar, Acetate, Mylar film base.
By the way, catch reflected light on the film and you'll see
the shiny-glossy side is the base side, and the almost matt finish side is the emulsion side.
Another way to check which is the emulsion side is the so-called "lip test".
Wet your lips and compress them (not hard) on both sides of the cine film.
Part your lips, and the emulsion side will stick to the lip it just touched.
Clever. (and non toxic)
Water-based markers (aka non-permenant markers) work only on the emulsion side, Permenant markers work better on the base side.
If you want to remove water-based dye from the emulsion side, simply soak it in warm-hot water to which maybe 10 drops of dish detergent has been added.
It may take overnight (you don't have to keep the soak hot all the time) but the dye will leach out.
Of course, by soaking it for only a short while, you can remove a bit of the colour to make light shades.
PAY ATTENTION TO THE COLOUR COMBINATIONS, rather than merely using colour.
One last: It is possible to use unexposed, developed colour film as a basis for the image, and scratch the surface til lines of light shine through.
Different effects scratching wet or dry film, side of a razor blade, X-acto knife, pin, etc..
The Black of colour film is made up of 3 dye layers: magenta, cyan, yellow.
SDo when you scratch film, you are scratching through 3 layers, and since the bottom layer is usually cyan,
scratching tends to give a choice of either black (unscratched) clear, (fully scratched) or cyan (shallow scratch leaving the bottom layer of dye.)
If you scratch on colour negative film, the scratches will come out black as the negaive iage is printed on positive projection stock.
Any dye colour will be inverted - green = red, etc.
If you paint on transparent film, the colours always have a white background.
If you have this printed on "colour positive film stock" evrything's reversed: the white BG becomes black,
and the colours are reversed: yellow becomes purple, green becomes red, light tints become dark shades.
This tonal-colour inverting can be done digitally, and it's also possible with cetain applications to make the usual white background any colour or black
while you leave the other colours as they are.
You may have already checked out Jamie Cleeland's stuff; (he announces his new work on FRAMEWORKS),
If not, check out his
www.archive.org/details/ExperimentalVoodouArt5
He's working digitally, but his colour sense is equal to the best I;ve ever seen, and most people who mess around like he does or you're planning to do,
act as if they are totally deaf to colour. That any colours and colour schemes are OK with them. (They don't pay attention.)
And here's the website of Kasumi Minken, a Cleveland Ohio digital video artist who went wild when I suggested bleaching and colouring cine film.
- www.kasumifilms.com
Finally, You've seen the original painting-on-film artists Norman McLaren practicing from the late '30s onward, and Len Lye?
McLaren is the father of you all. He directly scratched or photographed for his soundtrack! There is a feature length doc on MacLaren.
Any more questions, now or later, feel free.
And I hope you put some of your stuff up on FRAMEWORKS.
JP
' On Fri 05/06/09 19:24 , Myron Ort email suppressed sent:
> Will water soluble dyes work on the emulsion of estar or mylar based
>
> film stocks as well as on the old acetate bases?
>
>
>
> Myron Ort
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:29 PM, JEFFREY PAULL wrote:
>
>
>
> > It is possible to remove the B&W emulsion - the picture
> material -
> > and leave the clear gelatin intact.
>
> > The gelatin will absorb water soluble transparent dyes
> (Dr.
> > Martin's, for example).
>
> > B&W image silver can be removed by soaking it in a
> solution of
> > Potassium ferricyanide whcih you would find at a photo
> store still
> > selling darkroom stuff,
>
> > or from a supplier. Try a teaspoon of the (pretty)
> orange powder to
> > a gallon of water. When image is very light or has
> disappeared,
> > dunk/rinse in water,
>
> > and submerge in photo fixer for about 5 minutes. (photo
> store that
> > sells darkroom stuff)
>
> > Potassium ferricyanide has that cyanide component
> tightly attached
> > to the potassium, so it's safe to use.
>
> > However: rubber gloves, and don't let it sit around in
> bright
> > light. Bright light only, will eventually disassociate
> the
> > potqassium from the ferricyanide.
>
> > Otherwise it is stable. There are no fumes either.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > To remove the emulsion (colour or B&W) and the gelatin
> as well,
> > without using chlorine bleach,
>
> > 3 things in any combination help this process along:
>
> > - heat, so hot soak speeds things up,
>
> > - time, so the soak may need overnight.
>
> > - alkalinity also speeds things up
>
> > Fantastic,
>
> > Sodium Metaborate which Kodak
> sells under
> > the name of "Kodalk balanced alkali",
>
> > Borax,
>
> > Potassium Carbonate,
>
> > Sodium Phosphate aka
> Trisodium Phosphate,
> > You can get this as a heavy dutry cleaner in a hardware
> store.
> >
>
> > Follow package
> directions and
> > cautions.
>
> >
>
> > Jefffrey Paull
>
> >
>
> >
>
On Fri 05/06/09 19:24 , Myron Ort email suppressed sent:
> Will water soluble dyes work on the emulsion of estar or mylar based
>
> film stocks as well as on the old acetate bases?
>
>
>
> Myron Ort
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:29 PM, JEFFREY PAULL wrote:
>
>
>
> > It is possible to remove the B&W emulsion - the picture
> material -
> > and leave the clear gelatin intact.
>
> > The gelatin will absorb water soluble transparent dyes
> (Dr.
> > Martin's, for example).
>
> > B&W image silver can be removed by soaking it in a
> solution of
> > Potassium ferricyanide whcih you would find at a photo
> store still
> > selling darkroom stuff,
>
> > or from a supplier. Try a teaspoon of the (pretty)
> orange powder to
> > a gallon of water. When image is very light or has
> disappeared,
> > dunk/rinse in water,
>
> > and submerge in photo fixer for about 5 minutes. (photo
> store that
> > sells darkroom stuff)
>
> > Potassium ferricyanide has that cyanide component
> tightly attached
> > to the potassium, so it's safe to use.
>
> > However: rubber gloves, and don't let it sit around in
> bright
> > light. Bright light only, will eventually disassociate
> the
> > potqassium from the ferricyanide.
>
> > Otherwise it is stable. There are no fumes either.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > To remove the emulsion (colour or B&W) and the gelatin
> as well,
> > without using chlorine bleach,
>
> > 3 things in any combination help this process along:
>
> > - heat, so hot soak speeds things up,
>
> > - time, so the soak may need overnight.
>
> > - alkalinity also speeds things up
>
> > Fantastic,
>
> > Sodium Metaborate which Kodak
> sells under
> > the name of "Kodalk balanced alkali",
>
> > Borax,
>
> > Potassium Carbonate,
>
> > Sodium Phosphate aka
> Trisodium Phosphate,
> > You can get this as a heavy dutry cleaner in a hardware
> store.
> >
>
> > Follow package
> directions and
> > cautions.
>
> >
>
> > Jefffrey Paull
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
> __________________________________________________________________
> > For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at (address suppressed)
> om>.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at (address suppressed)
> om>.
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.