Re: who is john q public?

From: Zev Robinson (email suppressed)
Date: Wed Mar 08 2006 - 07:20:03 PST

thanks for the email Cari, I'm swamped with things and can't reply as I'd
like to, but if you don't mind, a couple of questions that may be critical
of your position
but asked with all due respect -

Are we not all driven by personal histories and cultural circumstances, or
as you would put it, sheep? Is your attitude towards religion based on your
particular experience of it and therefore just as predjudicial? If you are
crtical of your father's negative
judgement of nyc without having so much as having visited, let alone live
there, why would you made a negative comment about me without knowing me?

I've met people who because of or alongside deeply held religious
convictions have dedicated themselves to social activism, sometimes making
their lives uncomfortable and even putting themselves in dangerous
positions, and are as critical of religious institutions and open and as
much individuals (if not more so) as anyone I've met. If that is so, would
you be willing to, not necessarily change your mind, but to re-consider your
position? if you cannot show that someone like Van Gogh or Fra Angelico or
even John Cage (if you want to consider Zen a religion - Japan is a very
conformist society, anyway) are less individuals than anyone else, would you
re-consider? If not, are you not stereotyping and being dogmatic about it as
much as those you criticize below?

Is not the term white men, the way you use it, not stereotyping and racist,
and in doing so stereotypes non-whites too? Are you refering to Chet Baker,
Allen Ginsburg, Stan Brackage....? What's the opposite, Condolezza Rice?

If racism feeds on anger and degrades people so that the racists can feel
better and superior to the subject of their racism, are not most personal
put-downs not akin to it?

I don't require Martin Luther King to be perfect for him to be inspiring. I
don't even have to agree with him, tho I can't find much to disagree with,
and even if I did, I don't feel that it would be my right to second guess a
person like that in the context that he was in. he stood up for his values
on a social and political level in a context of the south in the early
sixties that none of us can imagine what it would have been like. He did so
without degrading or dehumanizing anyone else, but never backed down from
his positive values. In what way is that akin to a sheep?

Gandhi (in the movie version anyway) was asked how he rates himself
according to his own philosophy, he replies very poorly, that is why I am so
tolerant with others.

Time and travel won't permit me to continue this debate, but just wanted let
you know that your email helped me understand your position and attitude,
and hope you'll consider mine in the spirit it was meant.



ps the debate about art vs ag art, if there is a difference, quite debatable
in itself, will have to wait, too.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cari Machet" <email suppressed>
To: <email suppressed>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: who is john q public?

> yes i believe ALL religiosity embodies sheep mentality
> MLK was not perfect
> when i mention his greatness to my mother
> (who is racist)
> she always says he had an affair
> (so she gets to ignore his other great attributes - is her reasoning)
> i am fr: the midwest
> grew up in the mire
> i live in nyc
> both embody degrees of the masses that are ignorant
> consumers
> but the midwest to me has more depth in it and rightousness therein
> especially in terms of racism and sexism and homophobia
> all of which - alot of them claim - is a directive fr: the bible
> this is my experience
> not only with my direct family members but w/ others
> does this mean every person in each region is such
> of course i am not saying that but...
> my father calls nyc - the armpit of the nation
> (though he has never been here)
> i think this list does not direct itself toward ART
> but avant garde art - (or at least that's what was being posted about)
> - different
> c
> On 3/4/06, Zev Robinson <email suppressed> wrote:
>> that's not what I said cary, but it could be what the midwest says about
>> new
>> yorkers. I didn't say that there weren't very real problems of culture,
>> and
>> you don't know what I do or do not understand. assumptions, assumptions
>> (not
>> reality). I said that culture is a complex entity, and one should take a
>> close look at it rather than stereotype.
>> are you saying that Martin Luther King, Jr, being religious, was a sheep?
>> Z
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cari Machet" <email suppressed>
>> To: <email suppressed>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 9:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: who is john q public?
>> > glad ur world has no john q public (sheep)
>> > sad mine does (but glad i am in reality)
>> > ever been 2 the midwest?
>> > ever heard of religion
>> > ya know the opiate of the masses?
>> > for u 2 not understand/acknowledge these really problematic 'spaces' of
>> > culture
>> > is perhaps naive
>> >
>> > c
>> >
>> > On 3/4/06, Zev Robinson <email suppressed> wrote:
>> >> who is john q public? I've heard about him (or is he really a she?) a
>> >> lot,
>> >> but nobody I've met fits the description. everyone I have met, in or
>> >> out
>> >> of
>> >> the artworld, has varying degrees of sensitivity, experience and
>> >> knowledge
>> >> about the arts, and the various forms art takes.
>> >>
>> >> "Art is not for John Q Public (whoever that is) and historically never
>> >> was."
>> >> is incorrect. A lot of art was specifically made with the public in
>> >> mind
>> >> and
>> >> for public consumption, and on top of that, some specifically with
>> >> powerful,
>> >> unsavory patrons in mind.
>> >>
>> >> that AG or experimental film is more "art" than *some* of the things
>> >> that
>> >> have come out of hollywood is highly contentious and based on a lot of
>> >> assumptions. that's not to knock the best of the former, just that I,
>> >> and
>> >> I
>> >> think some others on the list, like other things as well, and see
>> >> culture
>> >> as
>> >> a more complex entity.
>> >>
>> >> one of the positive aspects of digital technology is the possibilities
>> >> of
>> >> democratizing art. All sorts things become available to a lot of
>> >> people
>> >> who
>> >> would not have access to them. I'm aware of the negative aspects too,
>> >> but
>> >> that's the world we live in.
>> >>
>> >> using an argument about the inferiority of the general public is not
>> >> one
>> >> I
>> >> like for a lot of reasons.
>> >>
>> >> john q public, like the hollywood movie, is an urban (art world) myth.
>> >>
>> >> Zev
>> >>
>> >> Zev Robinson
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> __________________________________________________________________
>> >> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________________________
>> > For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
>> >
>> __________________________________________________________________
>> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.
> __________________________________________________________________
> For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.

For info on FrameWorks, contact Pip Chodorov at <email suppressed>.